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	<title>Comments on: Making biblical scholarship available to congregational members &#8211; a bit of a rant</title>
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	<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/</link>
	<description>musings mainly related to my PhD on the Gospel of Thomas</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Bird</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-186</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-186</guid>
		<description>Judy,
Nihil obstat or a fair summary of what I wrote. Also, I think you&#039;ll find that Bauckham is not interested in purely &quot;proving&quot; the history of the Synoptics. His main interest seems to be in turning over the Form-Critical consensus that the eyewitnesses vanished and did not influence or affect the shape of the oral tradition. I think he overstates his case at points, e.g. his version of the ancient witness protection program, but the Form Critics have long been due their coup de grace. For what it&#039;s worthy many conservatives have big problems with his views on the authorship of John&#039;s Gospel and 2 Peter, so I don&#039;t think Baukcham is writing apologetics for the masses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judy,<br />
Nihil obstat or a fair summary of what I wrote. Also, I think you&#8217;ll find that Bauckham is not interested in purely &#8220;proving&#8221; the history of the Synoptics. His main interest seems to be in turning over the Form-Critical consensus that the eyewitnesses vanished and did not influence or affect the shape of the oral tradition. I think he overstates his case at points, e.g. his version of the ancient witness protection program, but the Form Critics have long been due their coup de grace. For what it&#8217;s worthy many conservatives have big problems with his views on the authorship of John&#8217;s Gospel and 2 Peter, so I don&#8217;t think Baukcham is writing apologetics for the masses.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Redman</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-157</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Redman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-157</guid>
		<description>I think that it depends on which part of the church you move in.  I think there are definitely some parts of the church where Paul is right - those in power want members of congregations to remain biblically illiterate.  There are other parts, however, where I think James&#039; categorisation is right.

His post reminds me that while I was in Houston earlier this year, I attended a big United Methodist congregation where every Sunday morning 150-200 people gathered each week to be part of an adult Sunday School class where  Rev Bill Kerley presents academic biblical scholarship in ways that are accessible to the non-theologian.  I was taken there by the brother and sister-in-law of my hosts and it was clear that my transport providers&#039; lives  and those of the regular attenders had been transformed by what they were hearing.  I found it fairly basic, but it would have been quite concerning if I hadn&#039;t.

I also agree with James about the need to provide material at different levels, although I think we sell people short if the &#039;elementary school&#039; level material doesn&#039;t at least hint at the fact that there is more to it than what is being presented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that it depends on which part of the church you move in.  I think there are definitely some parts of the church where Paul is right &#8211; those in power want members of congregations to remain biblically illiterate.  There are other parts, however, where I think James&#8217; categorisation is right.</p>
<p>His post reminds me that while I was in Houston earlier this year, I attended a big United Methodist congregation where every Sunday morning 150-200 people gathered each week to be part of an adult Sunday School class where  Rev Bill Kerley presents academic biblical scholarship in ways that are accessible to the non-theologian.  I was taken there by the brother and sister-in-law of my hosts and it was clear that my transport providers&#8217; lives  and those of the regular attenders had been transformed by what they were hearing.  I found it fairly basic, but it would have been quite concerning if I hadn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>I also agree with James about the need to provide material at different levels, although I think we sell people short if the &#8216;elementary school&#8217; level material doesn&#8217;t at least hint at the fact that there is more to it than what is being presented.</p>
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		<title>By: James McGrath</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>James McGrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-156</guid>
		<description>I think it is less that &#039;churches want it that way&#039; (as the last comment suggests) as that clergy, dependent on congregations for their salaries, avoid issues they feel will be controversial or resisted. That&#039;s why you can spend 50 years in most churches and never encounter the Synoptic problem - not the term necessarily, but even the general point that there is a literary relationship between these Gospels.

I myself have been seeking to use my Sunday school class to introduce some information from academic Biblical studies to people in that class, and it has been responded to mostly favorably. This suggests to me that there is a mutually-reinforcing circle, with clergy not saying anything about things they learned in seminary, and ordinary church members not hearing about things and so never having a chance to show they can cope with more than their clergy believe. In particular, if one approaches these topics inductively, so that it is the overlapping passages (and thus the Bible itself) that raises these issues, rather than those scholars that some people are suspicious of, the exposure to these topics can be a positive one and less painful than either side imagined.

The problem of individuals at differing levels of faith development and religious education has always existed - Origen mentioned the issue of topics that might be too unsettling or controversial and which should therefore only be discussed among the educated. Although I personally believe that people can cope with more than we give them credit for, people at different places in their lives may not be ready to graduate from an elementary school approach (books that provide the &#039;right answer&#039;) to a more advanced one (questions, methods, and some things being more or less certain than others).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is less that &#8216;churches want it that way&#8217; (as the last comment suggests) as that clergy, dependent on congregations for their salaries, avoid issues they feel will be controversial or resisted. That&#8217;s why you can spend 50 years in most churches and never encounter the Synoptic problem &#8211; not the term necessarily, but even the general point that there is a literary relationship between these Gospels.</p>
<p>I myself have been seeking to use my Sunday school class to introduce some information from academic Biblical studies to people in that class, and it has been responded to mostly favorably. This suggests to me that there is a mutually-reinforcing circle, with clergy not saying anything about things they learned in seminary, and ordinary church members not hearing about things and so never having a chance to show they can cope with more than their clergy believe. In particular, if one approaches these topics inductively, so that it is the overlapping passages (and thus the Bible itself) that raises these issues, rather than those scholars that some people are suspicious of, the exposure to these topics can be a positive one and less painful than either side imagined.</p>
<p>The problem of individuals at differing levels of faith development and religious education has always existed &#8211; Origen mentioned the issue of topics that might be too unsettling or controversial and which should therefore only be discussed among the educated. Although I personally believe that people can cope with more than we give them credit for, people at different places in their lives may not be ready to graduate from an elementary school approach (books that provide the &#8216;right answer&#8217;) to a more advanced one (questions, methods, and some things being more or less certain than others).</p>
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		<title>By: paulf</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-155</link>
		<dc:creator>paulf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-155</guid>
		<description>I think there is widespread illiteracy about the Bible largely because churches want it that way. They have a vested interest in persuading people to believe their views are infallible, so very few will allow information to be presented that doesn&#039;t confirm their belief system. How many times did I hear in sermons that orthodox christianity was taught straight from the times of the disciples? Of course, anyone who reads about history cannot honestly maintain that the mainstream Christian system of belief is remotely close to the teachings of the early believers. 

Once you start to study the Bible as history or literature or anything other than the pure word of God, then it is hard to avoid noticing that it is not really consistent and often contradictory, which leads to the slippery slope that a particular church&#039;s beliefs might not be so set in stone.

Also, few few people have the curiosity or desire to learn in depth. Intellectual subjects bore most people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is widespread illiteracy about the Bible largely because churches want it that way. They have a vested interest in persuading people to believe their views are infallible, so very few will allow information to be presented that doesn&#8217;t confirm their belief system. How many times did I hear in sermons that orthodox christianity was taught straight from the times of the disciples? Of course, anyone who reads about history cannot honestly maintain that the mainstream Christian system of belief is remotely close to the teachings of the early believers. </p>
<p>Once you start to study the Bible as history or literature or anything other than the pure word of God, then it is hard to avoid noticing that it is not really consistent and often contradictory, which leads to the slippery slope that a particular church&#8217;s beliefs might not be so set in stone.</p>
<p>Also, few few people have the curiosity or desire to learn in depth. Intellectual subjects bore most people.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Deardorff</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Deardorff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-151</guid>
		<description>Where do heavily redacted eye-witness accounts fit into this? Are they considered non-eye-witness accounts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where do heavily redacted eye-witness accounts fit into this? Are they considered non-eye-witness accounts?</p>
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		<title>By: judyredman</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-150</link>
		<dc:creator>judyredman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-150</guid>
		<description>Bob,

I have to re-read Bauckham in order to be able to be certain about this, but the impression I received from his book was that he believes that if we could show that (parts of) the gospels are eyewitness text, this would make them more reliable than the heavily redacted documents that historical criticism takes them to be.  I don&#039;t think that this is &lt;b&gt;necessarily&lt;/b&gt; true for reasons that I&#039;ve blogged on before - &lt;a href=&quot;http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/testimony-as-history/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/05/25/eyewitnesses-accuracy-vs-reliability/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  So while I don&#039;t think that Bauckham has necessarily set out to &#039;prove&#039; faith, I am not quite sure why he or anyone else might consider it important to categorise bits of Scripture as &#039;eyewitness&#039; accounts except because they could thus be considered to be more accurate.  Are my biases showing? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob,</p>
<p>I have to re-read Bauckham in order to be able to be certain about this, but the impression I received from his book was that he believes that if we could show that (parts of) the gospels are eyewitness text, this would make them more reliable than the heavily redacted documents that historical criticism takes them to be.  I don&#8217;t think that this is <b>necessarily</b> true for reasons that I&#8217;ve blogged on before &#8211; <a href="http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/testimony-as-history/" rel="nofollow"> here</a> and <a href="http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/05/25/eyewitnesses-accuracy-vs-reliability/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  So while I don&#8217;t think that Bauckham has necessarily set out to &#8216;prove&#8217; faith, I am not quite sure why he or anyone else might consider it important to categorise bits of Scripture as &#8216;eyewitness&#8217; accounts except because they could thus be considered to be more accurate.  Are my biases showing? <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bob MacDonald</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-148</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob MacDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-148</guid>
		<description>A further note - do you think Bauckham is trying to prove faith - I certainly don&#039;t get this impression. What he has done - and I have looked at a lot of his books and met him (briefly) - what he has done is to point out structural issues in the text that are a kind of signature of the ancient writer - It does not mean the texts are then flawless, just that the writer took extraordinary pains to express his or her message. One can then decide whether or not to &#039;engage&#039; with the message or the messenger. Such engagement can lead to a walk of faith - faith is not the same as ignorance or credulity or wishful thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A further note &#8211; do you think Bauckham is trying to prove faith &#8211; I certainly don&#8217;t get this impression. What he has done &#8211; and I have looked at a lot of his books and met him (briefly) &#8211; what he has done is to point out structural issues in the text that are a kind of signature of the ancient writer &#8211; It does not mean the texts are then flawless, just that the writer took extraordinary pains to express his or her message. One can then decide whether or not to &#8216;engage&#8217; with the message or the messenger. Such engagement can lead to a walk of faith &#8211; faith is not the same as ignorance or credulity or wishful thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob MacDonald</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-147</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob MacDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-147</guid>
		<description>The way people understand their faith is limited by their fear. If faith is dependent on inerrancy or hiding from one&#039;s own questions then it is not a faith worth its name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way people understand their faith is limited by their fear. If faith is dependent on inerrancy or hiding from one&#8217;s own questions then it is not a faith worth its name.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Deardorff</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-146</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Deardorff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-146</guid>
		<description>Hello Judy,

Your concerns here, and the similar ones of April and others regarding public illiteracy of biblical scholarship, bear analogy to my own concerns on the illiteracy of most biblical scholarship to new findings on Gospel origins. Just as the public are lacking the prerequisites that would prepare them for college classes on the New Testament, so also NT scholars are lacking the prerequisites that would prepare them for the new findings (www.tjresearch.info/contents.htm). The latter generally lack awareness of the reality of the UFO phenomenon (www.nicap.org), and so cannot accept the straightforward interpretation of Merkabah mysticism and certain NT events like the &quot;star&quot; of Bethlehem. Also lacking is an appreciation of the apparent reality of reincarnation (www.spiritandsky.com/reincarnation/evidence). Hence they are unprepared for the real teachings of the man known as &quot;Jesus.&quot; The illiterate public is fearful of losing their faith and perhaps being sent to damnation, while NT scholarship is lacking in curiosity over topics they have been conditioned to feel would be a waste of their time and detract from their professional advancement.

Some of us, therefore, are not so concerned with the public&#039;s illiteracy as with that of scholars who ought to be capable of educating the public in &quot;true&quot; truth. 

Jim Deardorff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Judy,</p>
<p>Your concerns here, and the similar ones of April and others regarding public illiteracy of biblical scholarship, bear analogy to my own concerns on the illiteracy of most biblical scholarship to new findings on Gospel origins. Just as the public are lacking the prerequisites that would prepare them for college classes on the New Testament, so also NT scholars are lacking the prerequisites that would prepare them for the new findings (www.tjresearch.info/contents.htm). The latter generally lack awareness of the reality of the UFO phenomenon (www.nicap.org), and so cannot accept the straightforward interpretation of Merkabah mysticism and certain NT events like the &#8220;star&#8221; of Bethlehem. Also lacking is an appreciation of the apparent reality of reincarnation (www.spiritandsky.com/reincarnation/evidence). Hence they are unprepared for the real teachings of the man known as &#8220;Jesus.&#8221; The illiterate public is fearful of losing their faith and perhaps being sent to damnation, while NT scholarship is lacking in curiosity over topics they have been conditioned to feel would be a waste of their time and detract from their professional advancement.</p>
<p>Some of us, therefore, are not so concerned with the public&#8217;s illiteracy as with that of scholars who ought to be capable of educating the public in &#8220;true&#8221; truth. </p>
<p>Jim Deardorff</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/making-biblical-scholarship-available-to-congregational-members-a-bit-of-a-rabt/#comment-145</guid>
		<description>Hi Judy...I find your post very interesting.  From my own experience, I have been invited to speak in some rather conservative churches on things like a critical historical reconstruction of Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity, Greek and Roman religions, etc.  And, while the response was mixed, people mostly seemed to be rather interested (and I was somewhat surprised at and humbled by which people were following scholarship).  I brought up things like contradictions in Ezra and Nehemiah, differences in the same stories that show up in Mark, Matthew, and Luke, and many parishioners told me that they had already noticed these things, but were afraid to discuss them in a public forum since they contradicted what they had always been taught.  While many remain hostile, it has seemed to me, based upon my limited experience, that many positive things can happen if a safe space is provided for such a discussion.  The only time that anyone has ever asked for a copy of my lecture notes has been when I spoke in a church!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Judy&#8230;I find your post very interesting.  From my own experience, I have been invited to speak in some rather conservative churches on things like a critical historical reconstruction of Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity, Greek and Roman religions, etc.  And, while the response was mixed, people mostly seemed to be rather interested (and I was somewhat surprised at and humbled by which people were following scholarship).  I brought up things like contradictions in Ezra and Nehemiah, differences in the same stories that show up in Mark, Matthew, and Luke, and many parishioners told me that they had already noticed these things, but were afraid to discuss them in a public forum since they contradicted what they had always been taught.  While many remain hostile, it has seemed to me, based upon my limited experience, that many positive things can happen if a safe space is provided for such a discussion.  The only time that anyone has ever asked for a copy of my lecture notes has been when I spoke in a church!</p>
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